Dr Werner, you are a singularity of stupid

We all know that homeopathy is really stupid, just like most alternative medicine. However, when I saw this “lecture” by Dr Charlene Werner, I was astounded by the depths of stupidity that she is able to attain. It’s almost like she’s a kind of Superheroine of Stupidity, with the special power of creating a singularity of stupid. This is of course stupidity that’s so extreme that it tends towards infinity and temporarily makes all reason disappear into a black-hole of scientific incompetence. Wow.

Bottom-line: if you have a brain-cell or two and you care about it, stay very far away from homeopathy. It will make you stupid too.

Update

They pulled that specific video from youtube, probably because they were concerned about Dr. Werner’s reputation going even more to the dogs than it already has (but not as much as it deserves). Fortunately, the video has been mirrored:

98 thoughts on “Dr Werner, you are a singularity of stupid”

  1. I had a quick look, she seems to be some kind of optometrist, and she’s also into light therapy *gag*. I can safely assume that here “Dr” comes from the well-known WTF University, also known as the International School of Stupid.

    1. Did you have a personal bad experience with light therapy? I have a personal healing experience with light and vision therapy. If it works, is healing, and there is absolutely no ill effect whatsoever, what is the problem??

      1. It’s being sold and promoted as something that it’s not. The more people believe in this type of hogwash, the easier they are to mislead with other and more insidious types of hogwash.

        The fact that it might have helped you most probably (and this is a very high probability) has to do with the placebo effect.

        1. When a child cannot team her eyes together to save her life and is unable to comprehend everything she struggles to read it leaves that child in a hopeless state with no self esteem. After 3 months of eye therapy she was able to pick up and read and understand ‘Lord of the Rings’ Trillogy. And, in the next year read and comprehend Algebra. That, sir (or mam if the case may be) is NOT a placebo effect!

          In the field of Science, if we humans accept some studies as valid and reject others because we personally believe they are ‘hogwash’ we limit ourselves as a whole. Somewhat like throwing the baby out with the bathwater senerio. OOPS…I forgot…our society does that already…

          1. Your claims about “studies” being discarded because we think they are hogwash has no basis whatsoever. Studies with good methodology are all taken into account, whether they concur with our expectations or not. Bad research is discarded. Simple as that.

            We scientists (yes, I get to call myself one) are the first to admit that a hypothesis is invalid if the evidence points in the other direction.

            The single case you mention does not count as a study. There are numerous other effects that together with the placebo effect can lead people to come to incorrect conclusions about alternative therapies.

          2. You know, even bad research, if you are truly a scientist, should not be discarded. It should all be regarded in the whole scheme of things. Remember the theory of spontaneous generation? OH yeah, that was disproved, right? Why then does most science base their structures upon the big bang theory of evolution? Life coming from no life? HMMM? My views are obviously different from yours and no need to make yourself ill over that. However, your vendetta against Homeopathy is truly disturbing. Physicians and Homeopaths should all be on the same team…for the purpose of healing. I am not totally against regular medicine either. There is surely a place for that.

          3. So you’re saying that a girl with such poor eyesight or severe vision problem that she “…is unable to comprehend everything she struggles to read …” goes through this light therapy, and after three months is able to get through material as dense as The Lord Of the Rings? That *is* truly amazing!

            BTW, my strong guess is that, whatever “light therapy” was going on was teamed with some very conventional therapy to help her train her eyes to normal stereo vision. It’s a fairly typical scenario that some sort of alternative therapy is done in conjunction with conventional therapy–then the conventional therapy is given all the credit.

          4. “It’s a fairly typical scenario that some sort of alternative therapy is done in conjunction with conventional therapy–then the conventional therapy is given all the credit.”

            I suppose it should be obvious that I meant to write “…then the alternative therapy is given all the credit.”

        2. Why do you say Homeopothy has not been studied under the Scientific method of study? My research tells otherwise. Or have you already ‘crossed out’ these small amounts of study?

          1. Meta-analyses have shown that homeopathy contributes nothing over the placebo effect. Please check your Lancet back-issues.

          2. “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing”

            Your silly conclusions about the relevance of the “Big Bang Theory” and that of “spontaneous generation” are so specious as to be truly ridiculous in nature. You have repeated demonstrated in your posts that you have VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE and are therefore VERY DANGEROUS!

      2. People generally recover. It might have nothing to do with the placebo effect. Because you survived doesn’t necessarily mean that the treatment is good or harmless, even if it seems to be so now. Even if your treatment was harmless, having that attitude toward medicine in general is unhealthy and opens the door to the malicious while letting in the benign, merely stupid variety. It also dilutes the distinction between bogus and real science. If that isn’t obviously bad, it at least is bad in that it will lead to side effects and is a waste of resources on every level.

        Solid scientific proof should be the only standard for medicine. Everything else is careless of human life. You may find her theories spiritually or philosophically meaningful, and that’s fine. You may find that she improves your life in other ways. But if you think she is in on medical secrets, let her show us the proof. Until then, let us call your faith ill advised.

  2. I guess she was kicked out of the Tell & Sell Univ since she has nothing to tell or sell, Stand up Comedian Univ since she is totally not funny, Univ of Life since she has no understanding of life and now she is escaped she is looking for an audiance, any audiance since she on the search to find Karl Rove. Am I close to a reasonable explanation ;-)

  3. I have personally been treated by Dr. Werner. I found her to be a warm, caring, humane individual, (qualities which I find admirable – espe cially in a physician) as well as professional and competent in her work. She takes the time and energy to explain to her patients complex theories and processes in simple lay terms, facilitating their understanding and increasing their comfort level. I found it very refreshing and reassuring, and sadly lacking in many other physician’s practices. I have had numerous treatments and surgeries in a variety of settings for a variety of ailments over the course of my life, but I can honestly say that I have never had a more efficient and effective healing result from any treatment. You may think and say what you will about Homeopathy, Dr. Werner, and all of the other “Dr. Werners” out there practicing the healing arts in a similar manner. That’s your right. But I say thank God they are there, and God bless them all!

    1. My experience with chiropractors lead me to explain any relief they might have given me was the simple fact of laying on of hands. I suspect this is also true of Dr. Werner. She made you feel comfortable and was an understanding ear and these traits led you to feel better, not any mumbo jumbo she was selling.

  4. Thank you for your comment.

    It may very well be the case that she is a warm and caring person. It may also be that she explains “complex theories and processes in simply lay terms”.

    However, in the posted video it is apparent that she has absolutely no clue what she’s talking about. Especially the part where she claims to “cross out” the mass in E = mc^2, thus yielding “light equal to energy” is 100% pure bullshit. This is not explaining complex theories in lay terms, this manipulating the facts (very badly) to suit one’s own dubious ends. My beef with that is that she presents it as the truth. From the rest of the video it’s patently clear that she has absolutely no idea what she’s talking about. What really makes my blood boil, is that she is wilfully misleading anyone who’s willing to listen, and this includes people like yourself.

    In the best case, the homeopathy and other alternative medicine aspects of her philosophy are a waste of time and money (notwithstanding the placebo effect), in the worst case they are downright dangerous and could even be fatal. See more here: http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html

    In short, I am all for real physicians approaching their patients in a more humane way. However, I am absolutely against any and all forms of alternative medicine.

    1. First of all, Dr. Werner never said she ‘crossed out’ mass entirely from the equation. Her statements were such that the amount of mass is infinitesmally small in comparison to the amount of energy focusing upon the fact that energy is the major factor to be dealt with in the medical field.

      1. She even made the crossing out motion with her hands. :) Even if she didn’t, her “reasoning” that the mass is infinitesimally small and therefore light is equal to energy is utter bullshit. The fact that she says it with so much conviction just makes it worse.

        I’m getting nauseous all over just remembering this.

        1. Did you ‘listen’ to her words? She did say,’almost’, not ‘completely’. Her explaination is for the purpose of focusing upon LIGHT and VIBRATION in the equation in that these are the parts of the equation that the medical field deals with…NOT the mass. Mass, in other words, is merely the ‘conductor’ for light and vibrations. BTW, the use of cursings is really unnecessary.

          1. You cannot ever use the E=mc^2 equation like she does. Never.

            It has a very very specific application and purpose. When one manages to transform mass to energy, for example in a fusion reaction, the formula can be used to calculate the *exact* amount of energy given off, in units of Joule. The ‘c’ is not light, but the speed of light, a constant factor. I repeat, it does NOT represent the presence of light in any way! Please read this, then read it again.

            Any other use of this equation, especially that of Dr. Werner, is a travesty and only serves to illustrate the ineptitude and stupidity of the user. The fact that you are harping on about this is also reflecting badly on your abilities. My suggestion would be to save face by stopping here. :)

          2. Yes, light is a constant factor, and in fact without the presence of light the speed of light would be non-existent. Is this a reasonable statement? The scientific idea of the speed of light could never be used without the existence of light. Where would energy be? Virtually nil. life as we know it would be non existent. In grade school science we learn that life requires light and without it nothing exists…everything dies. Is this true? Your formula is correct, however, your connections are missing.

          3. The concept of “speed of light” is merely a NAME given to traveling at the speed of approx 184,000 miles/second. I can call it “Speed of Superman” for all I care..even though there is no superman! And you’re linking this equation to presence of light and life and blah..which is all a whole ball of WACKO!
            ENERGY does NOT depend upon light! Light is a phenomena. It is just the visible spectrum of electromagnetic waves. Energy can be released as any frequency of electromagnetic waves that are in NO WAY light!
            And you CERTAINLY cannot get to – “life needs light to survive”, from the equation E=mc^2.
            I hope you never mention the points you said here to your friends, family, teachers, or potential employers – EVER!

      2. Pizzagirl, there is a simple explanation as to why you find both “Dr” Werner and “light therapy” convincing. You have quite low intelligence, to the point where you are not clever enough to realise how ignorant you are.

      3. Whether or not she specifically said “cross out” is immaterial, as the reason she ends up dropping the mass in the equation is because she feels that there is very little mass in the universe, which she concludes because you can shrink all the mass of the universe to the size of a bowling ball. This is absolutely ludicrous, and is the first sign that she knows nothing about basic science and math. For starters, what the hell does volume have to do with mass? The answer is…NOTHING! She then wants to cross out mass because it’s so small and insignificant. Well, if something is really insignificant, the value approaches zero. For some reason, she has it approach one. Make the value zero and the equation becomes E=0xC, which means E equals zero!
        But that’s all a moot point as there is lot of mass in the universe, regardless of how much you can shrink it down to. So the basis of her argument that everything is about light and energy completely falls apart from the very beginning, thus, why bother even listening to the rest of her babble? Then to throw in string theory and how we all vibrate is beyond ridiculous. Bottom line is that she is an idiot when it comes to science and logic.

  5. that video really hurts my head. and what really hurts my head is the fact that there are people who support her bad doings like mr. antelope…

  6. I’m not going to offer a defense, but I will note that one thing I’ve observed is that homeopathy tends to succeed in making people feel optimistic and more positive. This HAS been shown to improve recovery rates, well, I think it has. I’m pretty sure it has but I’m not about to get digging on the citations and references here. I think it should be something everyone with sense can agree on, but I recognize the poor form, especially on this subject.

    Anyway. What I wanted to say was it sure would be nice if we could find a way to increase positive feelings and that sense of optimisim without charlatanry and bald-faced lying. The things send in this video are appallingly stupid. They are not something anyone should consider in any way valid.

    But I know that this woman has probably helped more than a few people feel better, and I suspect she is not maliciously intended. Just like how in industry action outstrips ideas 1000:1 in value, the outcomes she is generating are worth something.

    But good god damn I hope if I ever say something that stupid my own hands strangle me to save the universe the trouble of arranging a piano to fall on my head.

      1. It’s not a matter of agreement. If what you are talking about is true, its effect would be measurable and repeatable. That’s all science is! It’s not some dusty tome of what ideas will be accepted and what won’t. It simply says “hey, that’s an interesting idea… let’s test it!”. Nothing you are talking about is supported by evidence. Your rant about the speed of light and its “connections” proved that you really have no clue. Put simply, this kind of magical thinking hasn’t really helped you or anyone else and it should be left in the dark ages where it belongs.

      2. Pizzagirl, you really are very funny. I suspect that you’re either Dr Werner or you’re having a laugh doing a bit of trolling. If you really do believe that any of Dr Werner’s talk makes sense then you need to just get back to school and get an education. You are very funny though!

    1. :-) You have to laugh. There is no point debating with believers, because their belief trumps all logic, facts, science etc. What’s scary is that we are surrounded by these non-thinkers.

  7. “If you add that to the theory, Einstein’s theory of relativity, we have E = mc^2 , but mass is crossed out almost, and strings”

    Epic failure

  8. @ 1pizzagirl

    Think about this. If the mass m is infinitesimally small, and, the speed of light is constant and finite, then using the equation E = mc^2, the energy E necessarily has to be infinitesimally small. The implication that one can ‘almost cross out’ the mass term due to being infinitesimally small and expect to keep the c^2 term that is multiplied to it, and then say ‘energy is the speed of light’, is incorrect.

    Furthermore, one can not introduce strings to Einsteins theory of relativity as ‘vibratory’ degrees of freedom, and imply that ‘E = speed of light + strings’. This is incorrect.

    It is clear that ‘Dr’ Charlene Werner has completely misunderstood the equation E = mc^2.

  9. It’s not at all clear Charlene W. has misunderstood the equation. She might understand it quite well and simply be choosing to misrepresent it so she can make some money. Whether she is a smart fraud or an ignorant, well meaning, confused fraud isn’t for me to say. Six of one….

  10. @yodod
    By George I think you’ve got it! Pizzagirl is the nefarious Dr. Werner. The syntax and complete misunderstanding of general relativity seems to match the woman in the video. Oh, and Charlene, deep sea vent chemosynthesis has proven that you don’t always need light for life to flourish, just heat, water and the right organic compounds.

  11. Don’t feed the troll, it just gets bigger…

    For the sake of you who have no idea what science actually is, and who have no interest in giving up your ignorance, the total mass of the universe is somewhere in the order of 1 x 10^50 to 1 x 10^60 kg. This is quite a large mass, and not really irrelevant, so you can’t cross out the mass term from E=mc^2.

    As another explanation for why people think homoeopathy works there is a phenomenon called “regression to the mean”. When things are at their worst they can only get better, right? And when do people turn to alternative “medicine” (of course it’s not really medicine, it’s just bullshit)? When things are at their worst! Ta-da!

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  13. This is certainly the longest speech i have ever watched where the speaker does not even vaguely get get close to being correct……about anything…..even accidentally.

    If you insist on being a homeopath, religious, or something else completely ridiculous don’t attempt to back up your useless magical claims with mathematical and scientific theories and equations that have nothing to do with what you’re talking about.

    I would take more heed of what she said if she claimed she was going to cure me with dragon’s blood. At least i can’t disprove that quite so easily as everything that crazy “Dr” just said.

    If my 4 year old daughter was this retarded i’d have her neutered.

  14. All I have to say is, WOW!
    This Woman managed to undo more than a hundred years of sound science in under 10 minutes, simply amazing.

    Two points that are hanging around in my mind are,

    The equation E=mc^2 is just that, a statement of “EQUIVALENCE”. Proven to be true and sound through exacting and laborious study and testing and review. If a person simply “almost cross out” mass you end up with an “almost equivalence”, something that is simply absurd.
    How can the formula “Energy = 184,000 miles/second” make any sense whatsoever? Or for that matter the eqution, “Energy = almost mass x 184,000 miles/second” make any sense?
    She has no grasp of logic or even simple mathematics (which is what this is). Regardless of what she wants to say she will end up with nonsense everytime….

    and this leads to the second issue, and one that plagues all the homeopathic pseudobable crapolgies… and that is…

    They have no measurable standards much less testable standards….

    Oh, and by the way….
    Steven Hawkings (Hawking) did not invent string theory….. the work of Leonard Susskind suggested this conjecture… and it is still JUST conjecture.

  15. ***correction***

    “How can the formula “Energy = 184,000 miles/second^2” make any sense whatsoever? Or for that matter the equation, “Energy = almost mass x 184,000 miles/second^2” make any sense?”

    I stand corrected….

  16. I had no idea what homeopathy was before watching this video, but just assumed it was the same as natural medicine or something. From the outset, when she asked the audience if they had high school chemistry, her point was obvious. Asking you if you have had chemistry and if you know what H2O is are unrelated questions; ask an 8th grader or a patient in a mental institution what H2O is and they’ll know the right answer. The point of the question is to make you think that you’re smart by answering questions affirmatively, and to condition you to believe her and agree with her because she starts off saying something you know and agree with, even if it is totally elementary. Classic con-man skills. The same is true of asking if you know who Einstein was…

    From there on, her speech is 100% gibberish. Yet she’s conditioned you to nod and agree, so you act like it makes sense. The bowling ball thing is factually wrong but also totally irrelevant. The E=almost nothing*c^2 thing makes no sense and has a units mismatch. “String” theory is relevant how? Vibrations? Everyone vibrates to an animal, vegetable, or mineral based on what again? My, oh my…

  17. All of the naysayers of Homeopathy or anything else they have zero experience with, have one thing in common, they are the same inept, subjective fog horns who thought the Earth was flat. One scientific “fact” after another has fallen by the way side, as objective science has caught up with and dispelled their “beliefs”.
    If you care to actually research the subject in doing a comparative with regards to Homeopathy, please investigate the placebo effect in the world of psychiatric drugs. Conventional and double blind trials have shown repeatedly over the last 40 yrs that the placebo effect hovers between 48-50%. Oh by the way the side effects of most all ssri’s includes suicide.
    If Homeopathy is a joke why does the FDA regulate the medicines used? If it is dangerous why is it the second most used system of medicine in the world?

    1. @R. Nash-Shannon: Your comment doesn’t really deserve it, but I’ll take it apart in any case.

      1. The whole of objective science is directly opposed to homeopathy. You don’t give any references whatsoever, I’ll do slightly better and give one of the too many examples: Try and get the August 2005 issue of the Lancet. It won’t be easy, because you’ve probably never actually seen or read a scientific journal before in your life, and hence don’t know where one finds these things.

      2. The placebo effect: This is the whole point. Homeopathy is no better than the placebo effect. Let me put it another away: The placebo effect exists regardless of whether the homeopathy quacks are involved or not. Let me put it another way: Homeopaths are con-men and -women who are making use of the placebo effect to sell their wares and mislead people.

      3. The FDA regulates homeopathic medicines to protect idiots from homeopathic idiots that are selling things that mostly have no effect whatsoever, but can sometimes be dangerous.

      4. The fact homeopathy is popular does not say anything about its efficacy, it merely says that homeopathic con-men are doing a great job at promoting their wares, helped by the fact that they mostly don’t have to do any kind of trial WHATSOEVER to prove the efficacy of what they sell, unlike real medicine.

      Now go read http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html and then please don’t come back. :)

      1. Even on a good day you are a mediocre person and the predictability of your response makes you nothing less than an automaton or a tool.
        Why is your FDA letting so many people be exposed to such dangerous medicine? Your reference to any Homeopathic patient being an idiot is classic. Darwins only dr was a Homeopath.
        Every time you breathe, Aristotle rolls in his grave.

        1. Dear R. Nash-Shannon,

          Your weak ad hominem attack (you really should consider focusing on your day job) indicates that you really don’t have a foot to stand on.

          Bye-bye now!

        2. Poor form!
          You reveal in your SECOND post both the inadequacy of your reasoning skills and your ignorance of logical fallacies….

          Of course I think we all knew what was coming once the first post was written…..

          Go study for a bit before posting again and perhaps you can avoid demonstrating your embarrassingly shameful logical skills so vividly.

          You have been weighed, measured and found wanting on all accounts.

        3. The statement,
          “(Charles) Darwin’s only dr was a Homeopath”
          Is COMPLETELY false, and demonstrably so.
          In addition it is a perfect example of at least three different logical fallacies as used in this discussion.

        4. RNS
          Why is it that when I read your posts, I can only imagine them to have been written by Dr. Zachary Smith? Oh, and the Aristotle bit was priceless. Oh, the pain, the pain!

        5. In most cases the FDA is letting people be exposed to water, it’s only dangerous if you’re being water boarded, drowning or drinking to much of it.

  18. I’m new to the skepticism game but I’d like to say bravo on this page.

    Until earlier this year I was a fence sitting agnostic but Derren Brown and Richard Dawkins tipped me over the edge. Since then I’ve been consuming popular science and skepticism ever since, like “A Brief(er) History of Time” (Well, I am a beginner) and “Irrationality”. I’ve run out of money for now so my Amazon “saved for later” list is filling up on Sagan, Randi, Goldacre et al.

    I’m currently reading Why Does E=mc^2 and Why Should We Care. I’ve just finished the Why Should We Care chapter so I’m approaching the end. I want to read it a second time to really grasp it all. But I’ve gleaned enough to know the specifics of Dr Werner’s quack talk. I’ve actually seen it before after reading “ABHoT” so I knew it was all crap anyway, But Brian Cox’s Why does E=mc^2 is rather more illuminating on the equation itself.

    I haven’t even finished it but I would highly reccomend it to Pizzagirl, and Dr Werner (provided she doesn’t know and isn’t abusing knowledge to sell some snake oil)

  19. I’ve decided to give myself a slap on the wrist for being too lazy to credit Jeff Forshaw as a co-writer of Why Does E=mc^2 and Why Should We Care?

    So anyone who is unclear and wants to digest what professors have to say on the equation (as opposed to a homeopathist) should check it out.

    Why Does E=mc^2 and Why Should We Care?
    Brian Cox and Jeff Forshaw

  20. I love the misunderstanding of Grade 2 math. Zero times anything = zero. Therefore if Mass is essnetially nothing, doesn’t that make Energy essentially nothing?

    E=MC^2
    But M = (almost) “0”
    Therefore E=0*c^2
    Therefore E=0

    QED. What an idiot.

    1. You forgot to propagate the “almost”:

      E = (almost)”0″*c^2
      E = (almost)”0″.

      Then, sprinkle in a little pixie dust, and a heaping tablespoon of logic errors:

      E = (almost)”0″ * P

      E = (almost) “infinity”

      E >= 32767

      3+2+7+6+7 = 25

      25 = My GF’s age

      My GF drinks water.

      Water is called “H two Oh” by sophisticated people who have a background in chemistry (Dr. Werner says so!).

      Therefore, water has memory and homeopathy works.

  21. Cthulhu, thought you were going to give up on this thread. I’d forgotten it. (this isn’t you, PZ, is it?) You have to realize that defenders of this kind of stupidity, like pizzagirl are not only blazingly ignorant but they are most likely willingly stupid. Like fundamentalist christians they choose to remain ignorant and will bend reality around the few firing neurons they have in order to maintain their desired view of the universe. There is NOTHING you can do or say to convince them differently. They either lack the basic intelligence to understand the facts or they willfully choose to remain ignorant, which is pretty much my definition of stupid. The “Dr”, however, is in a class unto herself in my opinion. It’s the single most stupid sounding diatribe (again…just my opinion) I’ve ever heard that isn’t based on some religious insanity.

    1. It amazes me to hear these morons critcizing Dr Werner. I really like her explanation which makes some good sense. I’m an MD with lots of research experience, over 15 years of clinical work and enough intelligence to graduate from a great medical school near the top of my class and I can tell you that HOMEOPATHY WORKS! So go ahead and continue being a moron and criticize me and anyone else who may be brave enough to step outside the box and see another very valuable theraputic tool. If you really had half a brain, you would understand that there are far too many worthless/harmful ACCEPTED methods of treatment/pharmacueticals/surgeries/devices around today within conservative medicine that continue to exist because of close minded conservative creeps who are too afraid, lazy or greedy to open their eyes to the harm being done. Why don’t you visit a local homeopath and ask him about some of his most amazing cases before you continue to flap off at your keyboard.

      1. @DJ:

        I find it positively shocking that you call yourself an MD. Where do you work? From which medical school did you graduate? If you find Werner’s explanation to make good sense, I positively fear for your patients.

        Here’s some sound advice: Read this Lancet study (you might know the journal, being a top-of-your-class medical school graduate and all)

        Shang, Aijing, Karin Huwiler-Müntener, Linda Nartey, Peter Jüni, Stephan Dörig, Jonathan A C Sterne, Daniel Pewsner, and Matthias Egger. Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy. Lancet 366, no. 9487: 726-32. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(05)67177-2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16125589.

        You can easily find the fulltext using a search engine.

        Also, I would recommend finding a introductory physics text and studying that. Hopefully this will help you understand that Werner’s explanation is absolute gibberish.

        Good luck on your journey of discovery!

      2. @DJ

        Troll! Troll!! Troll !!!

        Last week I was suffering from a really nasty cold…I was at the end of my tether. While I was getting my chakra rubbed after my last session of Reiki, I heard God telling me that my horoscope was right after all…..’Go visit the homeopathic doctor, they’ll cure you of all your ills’. I checked with Deepak and he told me to continue with the chiropractor, sleep with crystals around my head and make sure I kept up with my weekly acupuncture sessions. I still see the psychic, but after my visit to the homeopath my cold has finally gone away.

      3. …close minded conservative creeps…

        Alright Dr. Trollenstein:
        Prove it. Prove that “Dr.” Werener’s feeble take on physics is even vaguely possible. Prove that we’re conservative, let alone creeps. Or by “conservative” do you mean “anyone so closed-minded that they aren’t open to magic?”
        I propose that as a real, verifiable medical doctor you do not exist. So Dr. Trollenstein, take your magic sugar pills and scuttle back under your bridge.

        1. You guys seriously crack me up!! LOL!! You cannot be clearly as big a bunch of half wits as you seem. The stupidity is raging with Jack Daniels. Troll? Love it.
          Do you want to get into an article quoting war? Do you think an article out of any major institution isn’t politically tainted or proven wrong before and after it comes out? Ya big Ogre!! Ahhhhhhh. We got us a bunch of Ogres here Vern!!!! Can ya be more stupid?

          Furthermore, Dr Werner wasn’t presenting the theory of relativity. She was presenting some BASIC scientific concepts like the law of entropy and the theory of relativity. Not sure which back alley physics book you’re using. She was then making some “generalizations” regarding those theories to give you an idea regarding the way the energy of a substance may work in regards to homeopathy. Do you know ANYTHING about the energetics of a substance, the string theory or have any clinical experience to spout off from your ogre orifice?
          Bottom Line: You clearly believe you know what you’re talking about and the irony is that your ignorance is going to hurt you in the long run. If you really had any idea how influenced my profession is by the politics of pharmaceuticals (some good – some bad) you would think more than twice before making such dumb arse comments. And if your just trying to get some good blog emotions flowing – Bravo for you!!!! I’ll be sure to think of you guys the next time I watch Shrek with my kids.

          1. @DJ:

            You are a brave but not very bright troll.

            You will not be able to see why, but your latest reply has made it patently clear that you are NOT any kind of MD.

            Besides the unintended effect of giving this information away, your reply is otherwise completely void of any sense. The fact that you mention “energetics of a substance”, “string theory” and “clinical experience” in a single sentence disqualifies your rant from ANY kind of serious consideration whatsoever.

            Nevertheless, I’m going to keep your comment here, on the off chance that one day someone will be able to identify the person behind your cowardly anonymity, at which time I’ll take immediate steps to make the extent of your intellect (hehe) known to the people around you, much as I’ve helped do for Charlene Werner.

            (oooh wait, I do in fact have your IP number… probably won’t help, but at least I can take a look. bye bye now!)

          2. Let me correct that: You’re not any kind of MD that should be treating patients.

            I think I know who you are now.

            One day, when I have more time and patience, I’d seriously like to sit down with you and have a calm chat to try and find out how and why one drifts away from evidence-based medicine, or just very basic science for that matter.

            I’m starting to think it has something to do with the blinding effect of doing something different for a change, something that’s mostly harmless and often seems to be effective (due to the placebo effect and issues such as regression to the mean).

            I also do understand that there’s a need for more humane patient-care, but alternative medicine (or any other form of quackery) is not the way, as it’s really just an extremely insidious kind of dishonesty. You’re telling people that your homeopathy is curing them, via all kinds of constructs that are completely bogus in this context (string theory, energetics of a substance, water having a memory), when instead they are getting better by themselves, or due to the placebo effect, or due to the attention that you are giving them.

            In spite of your best intentions, alternative medicine, including homeopathy, is dishonest and disrespectful. Why don’t you rather invest your energy in trying to rectify the flaws of evidence-based medicine?

          3. @DJ
            Troll! Troll!! Troll!!

            Please be a troll, because if you’re not you’re just a poorly educated idiot with big pharma paranoia syndrome. ‘Basic Science’ – Ha! Ha!
            You muddle up so many biases it’s like you’re trying to sound daft.

            Please come out from under the bridge.

      4. You are NOT an MD….
        MD’s are educated in logic and can construct logical arguments based on intuitive reasoning and careful thought, not magical belief systems and ad hominem attacks, red herrings and straw men as you have here.

        No my friend, you have demonstrated quite succinctly that you are a charlatan and a liar.

  22. It’s entirely possible DJ is a doctor. Getting through med school requires the ability to memorize, not think clearly. Stoopid comes in all flavors. It’s more reasonable to guess DJ is a troll, but sadly it’s possible he’s not, but who DJ is doesn’t change the insanity of Ms. Werner’s lecture.

    1. I stand corrected, Santa is indeed correct.

      BUT,

      My admission does not change the fact that our DJ Troll writes like an 8th grader and has yet to actually construct a logical argument or make a cogent statement.
      No, I am afraid that DJ Troll does nothing but spew insults, throw red herrings and construct straw men.

      This is what we have all come to expect of the uneducated and feeble minded.

      DJ Troll may very well be an MD… But definitely NOT educated and much less logical…

  23. I did some searching using dr werner as the criteria. I was hoping to find some commentary from her defending her comments. It was too much to hope for. I find my fascination with this fascinating. Why do any of us care? It’s like arguing with a mentally challenged child, but perhaps because it is NOT a mentally challenged child that it is frustratingly, tantalizingly engaging. It seems impossible for any adult to grow up and be so ignorant as to espouse such nonsense, then to find there are OTHER people willing to defend such verbal tripe makes my eyes widen and my teeth clench in horror and amazement. The thing to remember is that both ignorance and stupidity are typically unable to see themselves for what they are so it can be difficult for the uneducated and willfully stupid to escape their condition.

  24. Dear Charl Botha – I am going to take your comment and send it to the FCC as well as other people I know. What you said is already enough to prosecute. If you slander me in any way or disrupt my practice, I will pursue it to the full extent of the law. You clearly have some serious problems to make such threats. Furthermore, I don’t know Dr Werner, But I will make her aware of what you wrote. It is a great shame you hold such hostility that you feel that you need to hurt people who don’t agree with you.

    1. Dear Dr. DJ, please go ahead. As you know by now, I’m here in the Netherlands where we have relatively sane legislation. In addition, please go back and check the comments you left behind on my blog. Whereas I remained polite and civilised, you were positively foaming at the mouth and were being decidedly childish in your unfounded ad hominem attacks.

      I am *considering* a very careful post simply reproducing your real name, address of your practice and the contents of your comments, verbatim. I’m allowed to do this, as the information you left here on my blog is public. As you would have seen with “Dr.” Werner, my posts turn up really high in search results (#2 in her case).

      Next time you feel that you have to spew vitriol, breathe deeply and rather don’t. Ok?

      Bye bye now. If you stay away, I might just not be bothered writing that post. Remember however that your comments (and your real identity) will remain here for a very long time.

  25. charl…you’re a doctor…involved in visualization research? I don’t recall how I was tossed into this mix but I was not familiar with your home page and didn’t know you were involved in research that touches (slams, hammers, runs directly over) on the kind of woo woo that charlene werner espouses. I’m laughing even more.

    1. Dear Santa, (hehe feels good)

      Thank you for the much needed boost. :) However, in the interest of full disclosure, I’m not an MD. I do have a doctorate (PhD) in computer science and my field of expertise is indeed medical visualisation, the integration of computer science in medical research and practice. I am by most definitions of the term a scientist.

      I’m also very fortunate to work together with bunches of fantastic MDs who are all strong proponents of evidence-based medicine (the good ones mostly are) and are all great scientists in their own right.

      Usually I keep my background out of these discussions, as they should be guided by logic and reason, and not any form of argument from authority.

  26. Is this the end?
    Part of me will miss DJ if he/she doesn’t come back, it’s been so entertaining seeing this ‘debate’ going on.
    DJ gives me a chance to have a really good laugh every time I read a new comment, as long as I can avoid the despair of knowing that these people actually make a living doing this.
    This thread’s had some of the best lines I’ve read in a while….’If my four year old daughter was this stupid I’d have her neutered’ is my personal favourite.
    Well done to CPBotha for shooing DJ away.

  27. I’m reading “Bad Science” by Ben Goldacre at the moment. It should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting to engage in a debate about homeopathy and other CAM. He explains what homeopathy is in such clear and simple terms, that no-one in their right mind can afterwards think that it could possibly be anything else but qauckery. He also explains concepts like the placebo effect, anecdotal evidence, and blind trials extemely well. If only it were explained this way to people in school and in the media, these quacks would never be able to get away with so much.

    1. @Pienk Zuit:

      It’s a pleasure to welcome you here!

      Agreed, Bad Science is brilliant and should be compulsory reading! For a moment I considered having it delivered to DJ via Amazon, but that would obviously be in vain.

      Thing is, the people who should read it never will, and the people who do read it in general already know what’s going on. :)

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  29. From what I gather, it seems that DJ is primarily upset at the prospect of having his/her ideas mocked and being publicly disagreed with. That if his/her patients find out what he/she really believes they’ll leave . . . en masse. In other words, the same thing Dr. Werner is currently having a problem with, trying to get the stupid-genie back in the bottle.

    DJ, making unsubstantiated, magic-laced pronouncements, calling them science, putting them on video and making them public is called free speech. Having people call you on said ill-informed pronouncements is also called free-speech. If you’re going to publicly defend the woo, you’d better be prepared for some blowback. Do you post anonymously because you are afraid of criticism, or because you know you have nothing to back up your pseudoscience?

  30. Well done CP…

    I only wish you had the time to write the post you speak of.

    Paradolius
    (awesome screen name btw…)
    You are SO right. How entertaining is it to see these numbskulls run from their own drivel when someone suggests they identify themselves or suggest to do the job for them.

    “Many people would sooner die than think: In Fact, they do so.” – Bertrand Russell

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  32. First off, I would like to say that I am completely against all unprven medicine, religions and other modern-day cons.

    But before I go into that, at 15 I’m still in education, and I used to thank the gods above and below that these sort of things weren’t taught in the UK. But I then realised, if these sort of idiocies were drummed into kids from a young age, perhaps future generations would think before putting their faith into things that have utterly no proof, and hold back our scientific development.

    So Mr Brown, if you read this, PLEASE teach our poor children about these horrors that are out there, but not in science or RE, no no. They belong in a history class.

  33. To all the people who are supporting homeopathy and other nonsense, consider this: Several hundred years ago, most people thought that “heroic medicine” was the best possible cure. It argued that you’d have to go through something much worse than the disease to be cured. Sprained ankle? Saw off the leg! Mental problems? Cut open the head, remove the brain, rub the inside with salt, and sew it all back together.

    As you may have guessed, these cures didn’t have a great track record. This didn’t stop most people from believing they worked, and their extreme popularity.

    It was in this medical climate that homeopathy was thought up. As you can imagine, its track record seemed AMAZING.

    Think about those things when you think that because it seems like something cured you or a friend, you have evidence that it “really works”.

  34. I have never, ever heard anyone concentrating such an amount of complete nonsense and pseudo scientific bullshit into such a small amount of time. For that this ineffable “doctor” deserves some credit!

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  37. @cp.. WOW. I know you talk well. But, never imagined you would rip through your opponents left, right, top, bottom and in all imaginable directions :D

    BTW, why/ how does this post pop up as the first link when I search for ‘homeopathy dr. werner’? Nevertheless, so damn entertaining to read absolute nonsense (I mean the comments about E = mc^2) for 10 mins :D

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